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Tag Archives: reopening findings

Irn Brouhaha

 

I apologise to any readers north of the border for that dreadful gag.

 

Re M 2015 http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2015/2082.html

 

The quick summary on this was “mother applies to discharge care order and in the alternative for more contact” so I wasn’t expecting much out of the case when I opened it up. But then I saw four Silks in the case and I thought “oh hello”

 

In very brief summary, His Honour Judge Dowse made findings that a father (F1) had sexually abused a child. The mother’s resistance to accepting those findings and her continuance of a relationship with father led to a series of care proceedings, ending up with seven children being permanently placed away from the mother.  The oldest C1 is subject to a Freeing Order but has not been adopted, the next oldest C2 is placed with an aunt, C3-C7 have all been adopted.

 

And then there is child C8, who is presently living with mother and her new husband (F2) in Scotland, under no orders.

This is the Irn-Brouhaha  –  the Scottish equivalent of care proceedings was brought in Scotland in relation to child C8 and the Court there concluded that there had not been any sexual abuse, and thus no failure to protect.

That was all well and good for the mother and C8, but raised obvious questions of what should happen with child C1 and C2.  If a Court rules that there was no abuse and there is no risk, should they come home?

 

As you may know, I am no admirer of the 350 page limitation, so I had to smile at this particular line from Hayden J

So scrupulously have the documents been pared down for the application before me, in compliance with the President’s Guidance, that it is not possible to track the evolution of these proceedings clearly from the papers filed.

 

 

The big argument for the case was therefore – what legal status does the Scottish judgment on C8 and the sexual abuse allegations have on the English Courts dealing with C1 and C2?

 

  1. In the course of the proceedings in Scotland the Court was persuaded to re-open the findings of HHJ Dowse. At the conclusion of the Scottish hearing, before Sheriff O’Carroll, the court reached a very different conclusion. In his judgment of the 30th October 2013 the Sheriff found that he was unable, on the evidence before him, to find that the Reporter (whose status is similar to that of the Local Authority in England) had discharged the burden of proving, to the civil standard, that M and F1 had been involved in the sexual abuse of any of their children. The allegations, on this aspect of the case, had been placed before the Scottish Court in this way:

    “2. On various occasions between 22 February 1998 and 1 October 2005, at various addresses in the north of England, exact addresses meantime unknown, M and F1 caused C1, C3 and C4 (who were all under the age of thirteen at the relevant times) to participate in sexual activity and caused them to touch, with their hands or their mouths, the genitals, anus and breasts of M and the penis of F1.

    3. Statement of fact 2 demonstrates that M committed an act of lewd and libidinous practices and behaviour. This an offence specified in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995.”

  2. In respect of these allegations the Sheriff stated in his judgment:

    “320. […] However, I am unable on the evidence before me to find that the reporter has discharged the burden of proving to the civil standard that statement of fact 2 is proved. It follows that SoF 3 is not proved.”

    By contrast Judge Dowse found:

    “Both parents were involved in explicit and inappropriate sexual behaviour with C1, C4 and C3 and neither protected the children from the other.”

     

 

It is always curious to see how wording differs in other countries – the ‘lewd and libidinous’ adds something here, I think.

 

Non lawyers may not be aware that Scotland has an entirely separate legal system to England and Wales – the statutes are different, the process is different and they have their own case law. The only time that the cases cross over is when the Supreme Court has to decide a case, when the Supreme Court (which is full of English Judges) has to apply Scottish law to the case and reach a decision.  This means establishing whether the Scottish judgment has any legal weight is not a simple task.

 

 

25. Mr Tyler and Mr Booth have drawn my attention to: Stare Decisis and Scottish Judicial Decisions, J.K. Bentil, [1972] Modern Law Review 537. They adopt the analysis of the legal status of Scottish judgments on the law in England and Wales set out in that paper:

    1. “Apart from the fact that some Scottish judicial decisions which go on appeal to the House of Lords may create binding precedents for the English Courts, the effect on English courts of certain Scottish judicial decisions in their own right appears to have received little or no attention this side of the border. Theory has it that generally Scottish judicial decisions are not binding on the English courts but have persuasive effect only. But in actual practice, the weight of authority on this side of the border tends to suggest that certain Scottish judicial decisions, notably those concerned with the interpretation of statutes of common application on both sides of the border, are indeed binding on English courts.”

The ultimate conclusion reached is as set out in paragraph 20 of their Skeleton Argument:

“Although we cannot assert the Sheriff’s judgment to have a formal (in the sense of automatically enforceable) status, it is clear that it has some status, or perhaps better worded, a ‘real significance’.”      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always dread to type the words Brussels II  in a blog post, but I have to.  (It always makes me think of Stephen Hawking’s publisher telling him that every equation in “A Brief History of Time” would cut sales in half. He only actually used one, in the final version)

Very briefly, if the Scottish judgment here had been in Lithuania, or France, or Portugal, the English Court would have to take it into account, and of course, mother could argue that under article 15 the case ought to be dealt with entirely by Scotland.  but Brussels II specifically does not apply to cases between England and Scotland.

In Re PC, YC & KM (Brussels II R: Jurisdiction Within the United Kingdom) [2014] 1 FLR 605 Baker J observed at para 16:

“It is widely recognised that the provisions governing conflicts of jurisdiction in children’s cases within the UK are, in the words of Thorpe LJ in Re W-B, supra, at paragraph 29, “difficult and complicated.” He was referring in particular to the provisions of the Family Law Act 1986, but as Miss Green has demonstrated, there is similar difficulty and uncertainty as to the applicability of BIIR to the allocation of jurisdiction within the UK.”

Nonetheless he went on to conclude at para 18:

“Given the clear view expressed emphatically by the Court of Appeal very recently in Re W-B, I reject Miss Green’s submissions and adopt the orthodox view that BIIR does not apply to jurisdictional disputes or issues arising between the different jurisdictions of the United Kingdom. Article 15 could not, therefore, be used to transfer these proceedings from England to Scotland.”

 

So the nutshell answer, after four QCs have sweated over it and a High Court Judge have looked at it is, “the Court don’t HAVE to consider it, but probably best not to just ignore it”

We then get into the law on re-opening cases.

Hayden J sets out all of that law very beautifully, but I think that I will cut to the chase, which is Lady Hale’s line In re B (Children: Care Proceedings: Standard of Proof) (CAFCASS intervening) [2008] UKHL 35, [2009] 1 AC 11.”  about situations in which a party wants to challenge findings that had been made by an earlier Court.

“In such an event, it seems to me, the court may wish to be made aware, not only of the findings themselves, but also of the evidence upon which they were based. It is then for the court to decide whether or not to allow any issue of fact to be tried afresh.”

But also

    1. “(a) that there is a public interest in an end to litigation – the resources of the courts and everyone involved in these proceedings are already severely stretched and should not be employed in deciding the same matter twice unless there is good reason to do so; [1997] 1 FLR Hale J Re B (CA Proceedings) (Issue Estoppel) (FD) 295”
    1. (b) that any delay in determining the outcome of the case is likely to be prejudicial to the welfare of the individual child; but
    1. (c) that the welfare of any child is unlikely to be served by relying upon determinations of fact which turn out to have been erroneous; and
    1. (d) the court’s discretion, like the rules of issue estoppel, as pointed out by Lord Upjohn in Carl Zeiss Stiftung v Rayner & Keeler Ltd (No 2) [1967] 1 AC 853, 947, ‘must be applied so as to work justice and not injustice’.
  1. In a further passage that I find has particular resonance to the issues in this case Hale J observes:

    “(3) Above all, the court is bound to want to consider whether there is any reason to think that a rehearing of the issue will result in any different finding from that in the earlier trial. By this I mean something more than the mere fact that different judges might on occasions reach different conclusions upon the same evidence. No doubt we would all be reluctant to allow a matter to be relitigated on that basis alone.”

     

It is ultimately a matter of Court discretion to decide whether to re-open previous findings, but a Court is allowed to consider that there’s limited value in re-running the case unless there’s a decent chance of arriving at a different outcome.

Of course here, we have two judgments, in different countries, which reach diametrically opposite conclusions. That led to some of the barristers having to argue that the Scottish judgment was an exemplar model of the way these things should be done and that HH J Dowse’s judgment was so flawed it ought to have been appealed anyway  (so the Scottish judgment is so superior it establishes a reason for re-hearing) and others having to argue that they were merely Judges reaching different conclusions.

I myself rather liked Mr Howe QC’s approach for the Guardian  (but the Judge did not)

  1. Mr Howe QC, on behalf of the children, engages with these factors in a rather different way and comes to the following conclusion:

    “The Guardian has taken into account the impact on C1 of the court concluding that the allegations were not proved but on balance, and for the reasons given, it is submitted that the balance falls in favour of the court permitting some reconsideration of the findings made by HHJ Dowse on 17th October 2007.”

  2. Mr Howe also submits:

    “the weight to be attached to the Scottish judgment does not arise from any assessment of its merit as an expression of the forensic exercise undertaken. The weight of the Scottish judgment is in its effect. Looking at these circumstances from C1’s perspective, it would be incomprehensible to her that the English court did not ‘think again’ and reconsider, not necessarily overturn, but at least take another look at the allegations given what was found in the Scottish court and how the findings there have enabled a relationship between C8 and M and F2 that, on the evidence before this court, appears to be entirely appropriate and beneficial for him.”

  3. Finally, Mr Howe comments:

    “It is submitted that C2 has to be granted the possibility of some relationship with her sibling and mother by the court agreeing to reconsider the previous findings.”

     

I know that not everyone is fluent in Elegant, so to translate  “It is really important for these children to get to the truth, whatever that might be, and whichever of these judgments is right the fact that they directly contradict each other means that at the moment there is doubt, which can only be eradicated by a re-hearing”

[I  agree with Mr Howe QC here. But as I told you, the Judge did not.  And he was not shy about saying so]

  1. It is self-evident that the interests of neither child is served by an erroneous determination of fact. Such a statement is platitudinous out of context. More than that it can be a dangerous, siren call unless it is considered carefully alongside the other features identified by Hale J in Re B. It is important to recognise that the factors she there identifies are inevitably interrelated. Thus: the insidious dangers of delay have to be considered alongside the more obvious damage caused by erroneous findings of fact. These tensions are notoriously difficult to reconcile and are ever present in family law.
  2. As the President identifies in ZZ (supra), the court’s discretion has to be applied so as to work ‘justice and not injustice’ and so the starting point is, again as he identifies, whether there is ‘some real reason to believe that the earlier findings require revisiting’. That seems, to my mind, to resonate closely with the observations of Hale J: ‘whether there is any new evidence or information casting doubt on the original findings’ (Re B supra). With respect to the Guardian, her views as to the value to C2 of ‘having another look’ lose focus on these important principles and fail to give sufficient weight to the real impact on these children of once again re-opening litigation, which itself may fail to resolve the present situation.
  3. Moreover, I am not prepared to draw the inference, suggested by Mr Howe, that because C1 instigated a further interview, following the Scottish Judgment, she therefore should be taken as signaling a willingness to participate in further litigation. She does not know, for example, what the reach of further litigation might be, nor does she yet have the maturity to understand what its impact on her could be. Before concluding that an issue should be reheard there must really be a substantial reason to believe that further litigation will achieve some clarity. In the light of my view of the validity of each of the respective judgments and finding myself un-persuaded that there are any other solid grounds for believing that a rehearing will result in any clarification of the present position , I can see no basis upon which to grant the application for a rehearing of the English proceedings.

 

[There is a lot in the judgment about a factual comparison between the judgments, and the basis on which the Scottish courts reached a different conclusion. I’m afraid that you would need to read that to fully grasp why on the facts the Judge felt that a re-hearing of the allegations was unlikely to reach a different result.  In very brief terms there were two major issues – that the Scottish Courts had relied on an expert doing something like a ‘veracity’ assessment which is out of favour here and the issues that came up in it were things that HH Judge Dowse had taken into account anyway, and that reliance had been placed on the children saying different things in an ABE interview done years later and the Court felt that this was not unexpected.   I wouldn’t say that I end up wholly agreeing with the conclusions, but because the decision here is largely fact-specific, you do need to read those sections to form your own conclusion about whether the Judge here was right. ]

And finally – wider interest

    1. Finally, I very much regret the delay involved in delivering this judgment. The case provides a powerful reminder of the consequences that ensue when the advocates fail to allow sufficient time in their estimates of hearing for a judge to write and deliver a judgment. The provision of one day to write this judgment is, I hope, self evidently inadequate. All counsel must regard it as a professional obligation to factor time for the judge to write and deliver a judgment into their time estimates. This is a professional duty which should be seen as a facet of the requirement to avoid delay in proceedings concerning the welfare of a child. I take the opportunity here to highlight a pervasive problem which requires to be addressed more widely.

 

It must certainly be the case that a judgment which requires a Judge to look at the intersection of Scottish and English law, Brussels II and all the law on issue estoppel was foreseeably going to take more than a day to write.   I wonder how in a more normal case, counsel are to arrive at a time estimate for a Judge to write the judgment, presumably at IRH so that time can be allocated within the Court listing for the final hearing    (Those advocates who feel the case is a slam-dunk are likely to be estimating 2-3 hours, those who are hoping to persuade the Court that the case is finely balanced before tipping in their favour are likely to be estimating 2 days so that the Court can see that this is a really tricky case which will need very long thought)

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J’accuse .. no, I don’t… wait, yes I do (oh no you don’t)

 

A discussion of  Re W (Children) 2012 EWCA Civ 1307

 

 http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed102911

 

This appeal centres on whether, having made allegations and then subsequently consented to an order saying that findings in relation to them would not be pursued, a party can then resile from that and seek to reopen the findings.

 

An interesting appeal, arising from private law proceedings.  Within the course of the proceedings, a very detailed set of allegations was drawn up on behalf of the mother. These were very grave allegations indeed.

 

At a relatively early stage of the fact finding hearing, in August 2009, counsel for mother appears to have given the mother certain robust advice about the prospects of succeeding in proving such allegations.

 

Counsel for both parents asked to address the Judge in chambers, and taking appropriate precautions to ensure that both clients were aware and content with this and that the discussion was recorded, this took place.

 

5. Trying to summarise the discussion, it seems that mother’s counsel, acknowledging the standard of proof that was upon the mother and the allegations over many years on a monthly basis, said to the judge that it would be difficult to see how the court could make a positive finding or indeed a negative finding and the judge may therefore come to the conclusion she could not make a finding one way or the other.  She posed the question one has to ask, namely where that would take the court in the terms of the proceedings then before the court, which seemed to be concentrating on the father’s contact.  The judge acknowledged that, and there was therefore some discussion about the allegations set out in the Scott schedule.

6. Counsel for the mother then indicated to the judge that mother had expanded upon her complaints and was now also complaining about his behaviour to the children, though the only specific matter she could relay to the judge was an allegation that mother had seen father hitting the boy about the head.  She explained that her instructing solicitor was making further inquiries and would detail those further allegations as soon as possible during the course of that day, because the judge made it perfectly plain that she would deal with any further allegations there and then without delaying the case any further.

7. So those further inquiries were made and they are now set out on a further schedule, which recites with regard to the children that the father would hit the boy about the head almost on a daily basis and call him stupid; that he would punish the boy; that he did not treat the children equally; and fourthly that the father would touch the daughter inappropriately, not in a father-daughter manner but more intimately than expected by a father. As I read the transcript, of the proceedings I am not sure that the judge was made aware of that fourth allegation.

8. The judge, that is to say HHJ Black — pragmatically and sensibly in my view — enquired what the true nature of the dispute was going to be.  And if and insofar as it was a matter of contact, it was important, she considered, to understand the mother’s case.  She said:

“Now if that was her case so she was saying ‘No contact ever because I emotionally will never be able to deal with this’ which I would have a great deal of sympathy with, I think probably all of us would have a great deal of sympathy with and be on her side.  So this was a complete no contact case, I can understand that …

But I cannot understand…Even with the new allegations, what I will always want to know as a start point is…she is the mother of these children…  If she is coming in to say, notwithstanding all of this, ‘This is what I think is the way safe contact for my children can continue’ short term, long term et cetera, et cetera, that is how I would be informed.  And I would like you firstly to find out, whatever happens, there will be contact starting as soon as it can be sorted out.  There is no reason why it shouldn’t be.”

9. So the judge was asking instructions to be taken about whether the mother was saying no contact at all or whether she was accepting that there should be contact, which would progress if it was shown to be successful and the case was therefore adjourned for mother to be advised.

10. Counsel then took instructions and returned to the judge and, in a long passage which I need not read in full, counsel for the mother made it plain as follows:

“My client’s position is this.  That notwithstanding any of the allegations that she still generally believes are true that she would like the children to see their father in a controlled environment and if he is able to behave appropriately and have a father, child relationship with them she would wish contact to progress.”

And she then set out how that would happen. Counsel told the judge:

“She understands that that would mean drawing a line in the sand in respect of her allegations both the ones she has detailed in her statements to the court and those she has raised today in respect of dad’s conduct towards the children specifically.”

And I omit further words:

“She is very clear she wants the children to enjoy their relationship with their father.”

I omit more passages:

“Your Honour, as I say, my client does understand that this will be drawing a line under her allegations.  She is not withdrawing them in the sense that she does not accept they are fabricated and if I could say that does not strike us as a situation where this woman genuinely believes what she is saying. Whether that is objectively how events have occurred is a different matter and I know that it is a point that troubles my learned friend.”

11. So, in the light of that discussion, the judge was being asked not to proceed with the hearing before her and left it to counsel to prepare a draft order, which had recitals giving full effect to the understanding they had reached. 

 

 

There’s then what I consider to be a very neat bit of drafting, to dance on the head of a pin, and reflect that the allegations were not being pursued or relied upon in relation to the issues of contact and residence before the Court, but neither was there any acceptance on behalf of either party as to whether or not they were true.

UPON HEARING COUNSEL for each of the parties. 

AND UPON the Respondent Mother not seeking to pursue positive findings in respect of the allegations raised by her in the Scott Schedule and in the list here attached.  It being noted by the court that the allegations made on the list were first made at Court today. 

AND UPON the Respondent Mother understanding that notwithstanding that fact that she is not withdrawing her allegations, she will not be able to put forward specific allegations as reason(s) for a bar against contact or future progression of contact between the children and the Applicant Father or in relation to residence and the Mother understanding that matters will proceed on the basis that [I think it should be] no negative findings have been made against the Father. 

AND UPON the Court recording that no findings of fact have been made against the Applicant Father and that the Applicant Father continues to deny all allegations made against him by the Respondent Mother.

AND UPON the Court recording that as no allegations have been proved against the Applicant Father, no professional assessment of him should be on the basis of the concerns against him by the Mother in the Scott Schedule and list attached herewith, and any assessment should proceed on the basis of events as described by the Mother as having not occurred.”

 

 

Sadly for counsel for the mother, she was no longer representing the mother by the time of a hearing on February 2012  (perhaps due to diary clash, perhaps – as can be seen by mother’s complaints, more a clash of personality than diary), and mother instructed her subsequent counsel to seek to revive the allegations.  This is what she says in her witness statement for the February 2012 hearing.

 

12.  I know it sounds dramatic but I would use the word tyrannical to describe [counsel’s] approach.  I was very scared and I do not believe she gave me balanced advice.

13.  [She] suggested that she should go and see what the judge had to say and I agreed.  I recall she came back and indicated that the judge had said that she would have difficulty in making a positive or negative finding but that we could do things by way of recital.  I think at that point that [she] was doing all that she could to dissuade me from testifying and although she did not say it I was left in no doubt she thought I was wasting the court’s time.  I felt bullied and I had lost all confidence.”

17. It may be that that allegation should be contrasted with how she had earlier approached the hearing before HHJ Black.  In a witness statement of 22 December 2009, that is to say some four months after the hearing before HHJ Black, she said only this:

“I am aware I am no longer allowed to bring these matters into the Children Proceedings, but can confirm I am still on the waiting list to see a counsellor from the Portsmouth Rape Crisis Team but I will not let the past, in respect of myself, have any weight to my views and the children’s views of contact with their father.”

In the same witness statement she dealt with the harm that the children could suffer and she said:

“I am aware this cannot be brought up again in these proceedings.”

18. There are certainly no mention of bullying or of her not fully understanding the nature of the compromise there had been effected.  She put in her own witness statement in January 2012 when she was without legal advice and there she said:

“When the fact-finding hearing came up I had an alternative barrister, who advised me that the hearing would not achieve anything, as the Judge viewed the evidence and had said that even with testimony from all the parties involved, she would find it very difficult to make a decision either way.  It was not made clear to me at the time that the fact finding hearing it was necessary for the facts of the case to go on record, whichever way the Judge ruled.  I felt, and still feel that some elements are central to the case, and [father’s] ability to parent (such as the fact that he abused me and raped me throughout our marriage, and that I was in fact under the age of consent when he first attacked me)”

Again, there is not a complaint of being put under pressure by counsel through bullying nor of a failure fully to understand the compromise she had reached.

The Judge on 12th February refused to reopen the allegations and to undo the order made, and this is the order that was appealed.

 

Counsel for mother in the appeal put her case skilfully (and as the Court of Appeal describe, valiantly) on the basis that the allegations are so serious that they cannot sensibly be ignored and a determination of them central to the issues in the case.

 

The Court of Appeal declined to overturn the case management decision of 12th February 2012, saying that it was not only not plainly wrong but that was plainly right.

 

24. I, of course, entirely agree that it is in the interests of justice and in the interests of the children that the truth be known where the truth can be established, but in all of these cases the court is required by Section 1 of the Act to have regard, among other matters, to delay which is inimical to the well-being of the children.  In this case there is nearly three years of delay or two-and-a-half years of delay and, as HHJ Marston rightly observed, matters had moved on considerably since that hearing.  Matters had moved on because mother had suffered a further breakdown in her mental health.  She was unable to care for the children.  They were placed with father.  They were subject to supervision by the social services department, who were well aware of the fact that these allegations had never been tried out one way or the other, but being alive to that fact nonetheless came to the very firm conclusion, as I have recited from the report of the social worker, that the best interests of the children lay with their remaining with their father.

25. The appeal has to be, in my judgment, an appeal against, in effect, a case management decision by HHJ Marston as to whether or not this matter should be re-opened.  It may be a matter of debate as to whether the more appropriate course would have been to have appealed.  This is not a case where the court is being asked to consider fresh evidence or different evidence from that which had been presented to the court which had undertaken the exercise.  Here, in effect, the gist of the application is to set aside HHJ Black’s order and to have a rehearing. That, one may think, was better a matter for appeal rather than to go back to the same or a different county court judge, but I need not express a concluded view on technical issues of that sort.

26. Treating this as an exercise of discretion, Ms Earley attacks it as being plainly wrong.  In my judgment it was plainly right. The judge was fully entitled to look at delay, to look at the way of the mother’s allegations of bullying had gradually grown as the case progressed, and to have regard to the fact that the mother was perfectly happy to leave these children in the father’s care unsupervised and unsupported for weekends and over holiday periods.  She consented to all of those orders.  She was aware of the effect of the compromise in August when she agreed those orders.  She did not then complain.  She complained only when the case had changed and she was now the one seeking residence from father, who had the backing of the social services in retaining the children in his care. 

27. To re-open the matter would undoubtedly cause further delay; the effect on the boy who suffers sadly from a problem of his ill health would be severe; and the judge, taking all of those matters into account, was fully entitled to say that it was far too late to re-open matters.  He was correct, moreover, to take the view that it would have been disproportionate, because one has to ask what prospect was there on the face of the papers before the court of mother succeeding in establishing the vague allegations she was relying on, allegations over many years with no corroboration apart from a broken tooth, which could have been explained as easily on the father’s account as on her account.  There was little medical evidence, it seems, to corroborate her account.  She was on her own admission inconsistent in her explanations of misconduct, in her reports to the psychiatric team who were advising her.  She was inconsistent about the events of March 2011 when she suffered an injury, as she at first put it, in the course of sexual activity, which was to say the least unusual.

28. Taking a view as to the prospects of her success, they could not be put as anything like reasonable.  On the contrary, they appear, as the judge concluded, to be weak.  What was the benefit to the children?  In my judgment not a great deal.  The allegations against the mother do not appear to have impacted upon his treatment of the children, who as I have repeatedly said are thriving in his care. 

29. For all those reasons, I conclude the judge was right to draw the line where he did.  I would therefore dismiss this appeal.

 

 

Much of this obviously turns on its facts – the huge passage of time between the allegations being ‘left on the file’ and the attempt to resurrect, the lack of credibility given later evidence filed that mother had been ‘bullied into this by counsel’ and the inconsistencies in mother’s allegations, but there are the wider points that it is legitimate for a Court to conclude a finding of fact hearing with an agreed order on the basis set out in August 2009, and that the parties need to be advised with care that reopening such findings laid to rest may be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible, and that they should be sure about that before consenting to such an order.